tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post65080763107051991..comments2023-10-09T06:54:04.099-06:00Comments on Past Times and Present Tensions: The Palaeolithic artist: part 26John Hooker FSAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10001080340384925879noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-52304615598050534092015-10-06T10:15:26.864-06:002015-10-06T10:15:26.864-06:00This is mostly irrelevant to the authenticity of t...This is mostly irrelevant to the authenticity of the Altamira paintings, and what is not is being covered as I progress in this series. As to philosophy, I am far too busy to discuss that subject and I tell people that I would have to charge $200 an hour to do so.<br /><br />What is certain is that the Altamira paintings are of the minimum dates recorded, so let's just keep to that topic. If you want to ask the testers, themselves, for further details, fell free to do so. It does no good to ask me about it!<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />John John Hooker FSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10001080340384925879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-46059443368205462362015-10-06T09:46:32.390-06:002015-10-06T09:46:32.390-06:00John,
I am not arguing all the assumptions underl...John,<br /><br />I am not arguing all the assumptions underlying the application of various dating methods are wrong. Only that we need to consider these carefully and honestly. And not assume experts that dated the sites are always right on the dates. Especially since the overriding bias by archaeologists is to push the dates further back. Where "new discoveries" and scholarly papers can still be made anew.<br /><br />Archaeologists often follow a "ruling hypothesis" selectively to whatever methods and evidence "proves" their narrative. Without ever questioning the assumptions they make. A good example of this is what Prof. Mike Parker Pearson has done with Crag Rhosyfelin. Like "magic" he turned a natural rock face into a Neolithic bluestone "quarry". By ignoring all other possible explanations for the evidence on the ground.<br /><br />From what little I know of the U/Th dates for the Altamira Cave art, the calcium carbonate coating overlaying the paintings were sampled for traces of Uranium vs. Thorium isotopes. The assumption made, I think, is the date of the overlaying coat postdates the date of the painting. This, imho, may be a wrong assumption.<br /><br />As for the other methods of dating (using color pigments etc.) any such done on Altamira?<br /><br />I agree with you regarding the psyche of the "Paleolithic artist". But the production of art involves more than psyche. It also involves technical skills, tools and material. And the need to "create".<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368374316165533910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-75198316679724828442015-10-06T07:03:29.927-06:002015-10-06T07:03:29.927-06:00Charcoal is not a pigment and C14 is notoriously c...Charcoal is not a pigment and C14 is notoriously corruptible. U/Th gives an absolute "latest date" and the dates yielded are consistent with the styles exhibited. But it goes way beyond that: this is just one detail in this blog series, but if I were to do a proper study of the pigments/paints alone, I would track down the testers and get some specific information while informing them of things they probably do not know about pigments, vehicles etc. from an artist's point of view. They have only been looking at each element in the pigments. Basically, the pigments are all iron oxides with "impurities" of other elements such as manganese (in the case of the reds/browns). Complicating this is the type of clay these deposits were found within, as the clay, too, affects the colour. Then, it seems likely that the colours were further processed by burning them. For example, in the range of colours we see umbers and sienna's. Both of these can be raw or burnt (giving almost opposite effects in each). When being mixed with other colours, these both can have variable effects and successes depending on the exact deposits where they were mined. Given the date range of these paintings, trial and error would have certainly created an entire paint technology among these people. (today, such technologies only take a few decades, but at Altamira we are looking at 20,000 years!)<br /><br />The article I linked to reveals that someone did not know much about painting technology: these pigments were mixed with a drying oil (I suggested that poppy-seed oil was the most likely)<br /><br />It might require that further, and better focused testing be done: Umber and Sienna are named after sites in Italy where they exist as richly coloured veins in ochre. Useful sites of such pigment are quite rare, most sites yield useless colours. One sample I took gave a sort of burnt umber colour but with an unpleasant violet sheen on the top when dry. useless for any painting.<br /><br />They have been looking only at the tip of an iceberg. The ultimate goal is the reconstruction of the artists' thoughts and that is more than possible considering the richness of the evidence. Modern art has never been able to approach the skills of primitive art and the reasons for that are explained by Wolfgang Pauli. I have one or two examples in my own collection: My Celtic plastic style sword pommel uses oblique anamorphosis at a level of sophistication that is impossible for any modern person to accomplish.John Hooker FSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10001080340384925879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-27937968447623895552015-10-06T05:12:13.798-06:002015-10-06T05:12:13.798-06:00The only "belief problem" I hsve are the...The only "belief problem" I hsve are the assumptions others make beliving they are true. <br /><br />For example, assuming the age of the charcoal used in a drawing as being the same as when the drawing was made. I need to know more about how the U/Th was used to date the art.<br /><br />Unless we can prove the cave was sealed since the Paleolithic, we cannot assume everything in it is fdom the Paleolithic.<br /><br />None of this changes what you say about the Paleolithic artist, however.Constantinos Ragazashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368374316165533910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-28239187711958952132015-10-05T21:41:20.954-06:002015-10-05T21:41:20.954-06:00How do you imagine that the application of U/Th co...How do you imagine that the application of U/Th could possibly be flawed. That makes no sense at all. It sounds like you have a belief problem.John Hooker FSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10001080340384925879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-48685808426175633692015-10-05T19:41:40.184-06:002015-10-05T19:41:40.184-06:00John,
The link states U/Th methods dated the cave...John,<br /><br />The link states U/Th methods dated the cave art to the Paleolithic. But does not state what are the underlying assumptions made. Not helpful! Though the science may be sound, the application may be flawed.<br /><br />The same general objections I have raised before regarding archaeological dates apply here too.<br /><br />Have any other links to offer? Or thoughts?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368374316165533910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-46467358582944762472015-10-05T16:29:27.626-06:002015-10-05T16:29:27.626-06:00Hi Kostas,
Of that, there is no doubt:
http://ww...Hi Kostas,<br /><br />Of that, there is no doubt:<br /><br />http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/altamira-cave-paintings.htm#dating<br /><br />(Uranium/Thorium (U/Th) method). But there is even more evidence to come...<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />JohnJohn Hooker FSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10001080340384925879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3137246730421866659.post-36453344462064019132015-10-05T16:17:04.963-06:002015-10-05T16:17:04.963-06:00John,
Before we can consider the psyche of the Pa...John,<br /><br />Before we can consider the psyche of the Paleolithic artist, we need to first consider whether this cave painting is Paleolithic.<br /><br />Or you don't think it matters for the purpose of these posts? Likely it doesn't!<br /><br />KostasConstantinos Ragazashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368374316165533910noreply@blogger.com